Forever Knight, eps 3-4

[annavere]

Keep meaning to post. Keep failing to post. So here's a post.

I am way too used to the Kolchak/Buffy/TW monster of the week framework. This show does not appear to belong to that format? Aside from LaCroix, all of Nick's cases have been regular human crime, so the pre-credits scenes have me trying to predict vampires abroad in the land, and it's not panning out because every episode, the killer is just some guy. I guess that means there probably won't be poltergeists and chupacabras and lizard men when I hit season three.

However, it more than makes up for the lack of cheap thrills by really excellent use of theme and a willingness to dive deep into questions about meaning and the human condition with that wonderful earnestness of 90s TV, where it doesn't care if it's corny, or if the budget is shoestring, because it is using vampires to discuss what actually matters in life.

And episode 4 had Torri Higginson on a park bench. I perked up, then remembered a friend's comment warning me she tends to die in shows. Literally a second after I had this thought, the sun came up and immolated her.

However, she got flashbacks and lots of dream-ghost visitations of a self-destructive Nick. Nick is busy being Basket Case Central and spends much of these episodes abusing himself with crosses, churches and sunlight. He's like the cartoon man from the 'Take On Me' video, bashing himself into walls to try and become human through sheer aggressive rejection of his condition.

There were some really beautiful moments. I'm not super attached to the characters yet, but Nick being able to hold a cross, and telling the vampire ghost that he wants life, not death... It's really heartfelt and poetic. I'm starting to root for him.

Vampires in this show appear to be a blood-sucking variation on Immortals. They retain personality and self-control, they live until they are tired of life and some envy mortals for their ability to have children. Which begs a question Highlander could never address: What if a vampire had previous children and could keep tabs on generations of their descendents?

Speaking of Highlander, whenever I gain the emotional bandwidth to revisit that show, 'Turnabout' is going to be a trip.

I enjoy the camaraderie between Nick and Natalie. I liked how Janette decided to save Schanke based purely on him being Nick's partner, and never mentioned this to Nick. I am enjoying the flashbacks. The humor is hit and miss, but the drama is on point. Looking forward to more.

Comments

Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

What if a vampire had previous children and could keep tabs on generations of their descendents?

Funny you should ask that question!

Torri's episode was so poignant, wasn't it? And it was one of her earliest roles, yet she delivered it so well.

Season one - honestly, the show as a whole - is intensely compelling and thoughtful on the meaning of living versus just existing.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

:)

She did an excellent job. I also liked that even though her character died to instigate angst for Nick, she was given a clear backstory, personality and arc, and went out on her own terms. The subject was handled with a lot of respect. I am enjoying how seriously the writers are taking the concepts driving this show.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

Right? The premise of the series - "vampire cop seeking redemption of his sins by solving crimes" is cheesy as hell (and wait until you get to Dance by the Light of the Moon, which is just, oh God) and the FX are a prime example of 90's low budget tv, but the writing. The characterization!

It's not the A-plot that does it every time, it's those character-based B-plots that hook you. (Me. I mean me.)

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Character-based B plots are the true star of episodic television. There's so much information and soul to be found in the secondary plotlines of (ostensibly) throwaway episodes.

It's like in Buffy, where I am a staunch defender of all the "bad" motw episodes which supposedly bring down season two. I don't care if 'Some Assembly Required' has a lame villain. It's got adorable character work, pivotal themes and all kinds of tragic foreshadowing. It's an important episode!

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

I agree! We got some great moments in those character-based B-plots. You can mine gold for fanfic and discussion out of them. Clearly for years.

I love Some Assembly Required. (It also has some great Jenny/Giles moments. I believe that's the one where she makes him go to the football game and they discuss the monster truck rally she dragged him to.) And honestly, I rewatched SAR recently and the villain might be kind of lame, but the themes still hit and it's very much a precursor to the even harder-hitting season six and the Trio.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

100%!

It also foreshadows what happens when people can't cope with their grief, given this is the show's first depicted resurrection, and the football player is NOT happy being back. He even sees himself as a monster (which... yeah, he has a non-metaphoric point) and eventually decides to die in the flames. A lot of this episode maps on to season six so easily.

Plus, Giles/Jenny! On a date! It's so cute!

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

A huge theme of the series, especially in later years! But not just in later years, since Giles not being able to cope with his grief (or, let's face it, 90% of his feelings) in season two was...bad. Not to mention Buffy couldn't really deal with her feelings, but also we have the Stupid Teenager Corollary on giving characters grace.

Stupid fridge. I still hate it. And it's stuffed so full.

Giles and Jenny on a date on that episode and with the kids getting all interferey is just 10x the adorableness of everything else and should be illegal. Except! I love it.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Giles! I love him, but wow, could he not handle his own big emotions. He was a simmering pot of not coping with anything personal. Ever.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

Right? That man was a walking dumpling of trauma. I love him so much for at least trying to be functional for the Sunnydale kids. But he was so bad at it. Better than Wesley, but that's not saying much.

Some days I really wish that Faith's first Watcher had survived. Just because she might have been a better example! But oh good God. Speaking of trauma babies who deserved so much better.

Have I mentioned how much I love this show too? OH WAIT.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

And Giles could be really good at being functional for other people! Many of my favorite Giles moments are very quiet moments of support. Even just being the only one to say "welcome home" when Buffy returned from running away meant the world. It was when his own feelings got in the way that he'd make a hash of things.

Better than Wesley! Yes! :D

Wesley is wonderful, too. But a disaster human so powerful he could out-disaster Angel.

I wish we'd learned anything about Faith's first Watcher. Faith took so completely to the slaying, and she and her Watcher obviously talked a lot. She must have felt important to somebody for the first time and then...

This was such a cruel show. Honestly, sometimes I don't know why I love it so much, but I DO.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

Giles' main method of functionality was for other people! He was an absolute delight at that. Except when he got mad at Jenny and then decided that, to support Buffy, he had to cut Jenny off. OMG. Giles. That's not how you do things.

Wesley was such an absolute Disaster Human that he terrified me. But put him with Lilah and the two of them together made a functional couple. I shipped it. Hard. I didn't want to, but I was into it. And then Lilah got shoved in a fridge. Good God.

I think Faith's Watcher was the first parental figure she had that actually gave her validation. Certainly I don't think Faith got any from her mother. And then the Watcher died, and Faith ran to Sunnydale and-- Well. It was a bit of a disaster (everyone's loyalty was very clearly Buffy-first and then you had Gwendolyn doing all that so-cruel, so-easy undermining), and then she met the Mayor, who gave her so much validation. He had someone doing his evil bidding and a daughter figure.

It was a terribly cruel show. Goddamn I loved it. And I kept hoping for less cruelty. Just occasionally a good ending.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Buffy didn't even want him to cut Jenny off! Buffy deciding that misery does not love company was a small but important moment for her!

Oh, Lilah... I never expected to enjoy her and Wesley so much. I was all in on shipping Wes/Fred at the time, but I was won over fast. I was invested. And then Lilah... And then Fred...

For my eventual sanity, I ended up just labeling Angel a Greek tragedy.

I love Faith's arc so much. It's so fun to see both the descent into evil and the redemption (which does not equal death, hurray), rather than being introduced to her as a villain and slowly humanizing her (which can also be great, but is more typical). She's incredibly vulnerable upon introduction and later actions build on that, so her loyalty to the Mayor makes sense.

This conversation got me curious and I went looking to see if anyone has written about Faith's relationship with her first Watcher. This is the only fic I found which is specifically focused on that. A quick read, but I enjoyed it: A Cinderella Story

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

Giles was looking for an excuse because he was so hurt and while I want to say he couldn't put himself in Jenny's shoes there, the reality was that he could all-too-easily put himself in Jenny's shoes there, given his actions during the Cruciamentum, when he had to choose between duty and his daughter-figure, so his own guilt played all too big a part. Now, as you know, I absolutely goddamn love Rupert Giles in all his complicated, damaged glory and the utter parallels between hereditary Watcher and hereditary scion of the Romany curse scream out for exploration. And in that fic, you know the one I sent you that's a WIP, that's 100% going to goddamn get gone into, if only I could get to the point where I can get Giles back into the goddamn story, my God, will these characters just let me get there? Please?

So I would have been all-in on shipping Wes/Fred but Gunn was there and Fred was into him and he was adorable with her, and she wanted Gunn, not Wes, so I was all for Wes moving the hell on. And he did! And it was great! And then - BAM - they dropped a giant fridge on Lilah and I just about screamed. Because they can't have nice things.

Also we probably ought not get me started on Fred and that Old One-sized fridge, because, for the sake of my sanity, I have decided that whoever declared that Fred's soul was gone, burned away, etc. was wrong because fuck that bullshit, and that a piece of Fred's soul remains and is regrowing inside her body/Illyria because there is no other way that Illyria could access Fred's memories without her soul feeding them to her and using that to regrow.

But yes. Angel is a Greek tragedy. It cannot be anything but with the way it ended. It could have been something else, if it had ended in another fashion. But the long, downward crawl that it took with everyone's best traits and tragic flaws being used against them absolutely turns what was meant to be a meditation on heroism and relentless attempts at redemption (ultimately deemed unachievable for past sins, but defined as working on change and doing good going forward) in a flawed world post-Garden of Eden ultimately turned it into a Greek tragedy where those flaws would drag everyone down into an apocalyptic hellscape where the best they could do is, as the last episode title implies, "burn out, not fade away," by going out in a blaze of glory fighting the good fight.

Ahem. I have many, many, many thoughts on both series.

Anyway! My gal, Faith, is such a goddamn delight, I love her arc, how she starts out wanting to do so much good and is so easily turned Dark Side by getting the love and acceptance that she was desperately craving and that the Scooby Gang, love them though I do, couldn't see that she wanted. Not even Wes or Giles, as the putative adults in the situation, because Wes was a walking trash fire of Lawful Neutral-thinking-he's-Lawful-Good and Giles was fixated on Buffy and also his own trauma. Because no way in fuck was he over any of that prior season trauma. (Torture, mind rape, grief over Jenny, Angelus generally. Oh my God, Giles, get some fucking therapy!).

Recs! Yes! Thank you! <3 <3 <3

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

I love your observations on Giles and Jenny parallels, and how Giles was handling (or not) his own extensive traumas and how that damaged his ability to Be There for the kids. Yes, please, force Giles to cooperate with your story! Knock him out if you have to!

Oh yes, Faith put up a show of bravado, and it makes sense that the Scooby Gang (specifically the kids) would take it at face value and not realize what was underneath. You make a good point about Giles having too much on his own plate, and his main concern was always Buffy. In Faith's introductory episode, he's completely focused on helping Buffy open up about her own trauma (to avoid dealing with his? to process by proxy? what do you think?) and then later gets the "Angel is back" bombshell dropped in his lap, so yeah, he probably looked at Faith and applied the logic of his own dropout Ripper days in cold water flats and decided she wanted to live that way and there were more urgent concerns.

Fred/Gunn and Wesley/Lilah both worked beautifully, but because this was a Greek tragedy (and 100% YES to your description of that), everything for everyone had to end in the worst possible way. Although I will forever maintain that Illyria's behavior makes no damn sense unless Fred's soul was trapped inside the shell Illyria made, unable to depart to a heavenly dimension and therefore able to influence Illyria. Fred isn't taken out by a monster flu, no. She harnesses a hell-god and is amazing and I want to write that story someday.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

Jenny is having some issues with him running off to England right now. Because what the actual fuck, Rupert? Weren't you there for all those kids, not just Buffy? Oh, wait'll she hears about Faith.

He's in such trouble. And it's not like Drusilla or Spike (putative adults, oh God, terrible thought) will back him up. The kids might, but they would. They're very forgiving.

Anyway. The Scooby Gang was too young to realize they shouldn't take Faith's bravado as anything other real. And Giles was too busy trying to fake being a functional human being (grief, man, I do think Jenny was the one for him) to look too deep at anything, and then Angel came back, and here's Faith being so sassy and brunette and just the teenager he'd imagined Jenny would be, only a Slayer and capable of surviving Angelus, and she's obviously taking care of herself just fine.( And Joyce was probably dealing with the fallout of just realizing her daughter was the Slayer, and had died, and - honestly poor Joyce. She just wanted a normal life. And it wasn't up to her to take in a strange girl from Boston. I do think it was more on Giles. The, uh. The Watcher.)

Then Giles got fired from the Watchers for daring to choose his Slayer over his duty - and oh if only he'd done that before, maybe Jenny would be alive and also maybe he wouldn't have to deal with that insufferable prat, Wesley. (Poor Wes.)

Hard agree on Fred being sneaky and genius and 100% able to influence Illyria from the inside. (There's some very interesting parallels in SG-1 that I deeply want to discuss here, but have to wait until you've seen those episodes.) And honestly, people make mistakes! They could have not realized that Fred would still be there! And it's a thing that should be written.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

The more I think about it, the more I realize how completely Faith arrived at the worst possible time in Sunnydale. Everyone (even Joyce) were just too busy with their own traumas. I feel like if she'd been called before Kendra and arrived in her stead, it would have gone so much better for her.

Unless she was too hands-on and just staked Angel rather than leaving him in a sunrise deathtrap. That might have soured things a little bit.

Thoroughly enjoying your description of Giles' heartrendingly sad inner life without Jenny. Poor, poor Rupert...

And on the Fred topic:

The main people who co-signed the cult's assertion that Fred was gone were the two vampires, which makes sense. Angel and Spike can't help relying on their vampire senses, and on how that form of dying works (plus they are fairly beaten down and pessimistic by that point in time).

I do like to picture Spike being the first one to suspect Fred isn't as gone as they all thought, citing the poetry of the thing. Angel would be very snippy about this hypothesis, telling him to come back when he's got actual evidence (because it's Spike making the argument, and because Angel feels so hopeless by this point in time).

Oh, and Fred being a genius about dimensional physics, she would help Illyria regain her power of dimension-hopping, which would lead to an epic quest through the realms of the dead (because if this show was already a Greek tragedy, riffing on Orpheus fits right in). The dimension where W&H employees go, teaming up with Gunn (whom the Senior Partners foolishly weaponized with all the demon laws ever, and I refuse to believe he can't use that against them) and probably both Lilah and Lindsey, to find a way to break the permanent contracts of all the dead employees and release them to their individually deserved afterlives.

Wesley, however, had a preexisting date with a bespoke Powers That Be hell dimension, for his major role in the Tro-Clon prophecy (Lilah pretty much spelled this out for him when she gave him the Dante book in that one episode), so they still have to track him down after rescuing Gunn.

(Okay, that bit of theorizing got away from me).

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

What with Faith looking for refuge from her own personal traumas, not really her upbringing (because she was too young to realize how traumatic those were), but her recent Watcher's death, and everyone else very - uh. I hesitate to say self-involved, because they didn't mean to be! But that's how it ended up because of the collective effect of season two, Faith was just absolutely fucked.

And I think if Faith was called in place of Kendra, with that little bit of destiny-based hopscotch going on, if Faith'd had Diana (the possibly-book-based name of her Watcher, possibly offhandedly-canon-named, I don't remember anymore, but I'm running with it), her original Watcher, things might have been very different. She was less used to obeying orders and wouldn't have necessarily fallen for Dru's hypnosis quite so easily as Kendra would have. For want of a nail indeed.

Poor Giles. I do think he's harder on himself than anybody else, but uh. He's had it rough.

As to your "bit of theorizing," I don't know, that sounds like a pretty banger start to an outline to me! I would crave that fic and I know several people who would drop to bended knee to shriek in joy to read that.

I'm uh. Just saying. I know you have a few fics-in-progress, but if there's something I can do to help make this happen, I'm there for that too.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Yeah, that idea... Oh no, it is an outline, isn't it? Now joining all my other outlines. Plotbunnies with their big eyes, imploring my attention. Argh.

When I first started writing fic, I fretted slightly, because it was a lot of fun and I'd be sad when I finished my one (1) idea and would have nothing left to write and would have to find another hobby.

Yeah.

At least I'm close to finishing one of my current WIPs! Can almost see the checkered flag waving...

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

It's completely an outline and I take no responsibility at all for that. None whatsoever! I'm completely innocent. No one has been more innocent than me in the history of fic.

When I first started writing fic, I fretted slightly, because it was a lot of fun and I'd be sad when I finished my one (1) idea and would have nothing left to write and would have to find another hobby.

Oh. Oh, what a thought. I-- I see people commenting about this occasionally and it's kind of funny, isn't it?

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

I think it is officially too late for me to ever clear all the projects I have planned, especially given how very helpful you are in steering me away from theories and headcanons. ♥

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[havocthecat]

I am a terrible influence and an awful friend, I know that I'm the worst person you could ever know.

Well. If you wanted a non-fic-writing future. Which you don't.

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Truly it is so! I am doomed to always be writing fic (thankfully). ❤️

Re: Hi, it's me, I'm the friend.

[annavere]

Oh! And I must share this, which is unfinished but delves into a very different take (though still highly supportive) on Faith's watcher in the second chapter. The main focus is on Faith interacting with ghost!Kendra, and it's awesome:

Take Me Somewhere Nice

[brightknightie]

Correct, FK is not a monster-of-the-week show. We called it a neck-of-the-week show. ;-) Structurally, it's much more like HL than like BtVS. Here in 2025, many remaining fans seem mainly invested in the vampire element, but while it aired, many fans were mainly invested in the historical, police, or thematic elements.

FK does have a handful of episodes with supernatural elements beyond the vampires, but those generally hew to fairly widespread real-world beliefs, like the Erika (Torri Higginson) ghost you recently encountered in "Last Act."

In "Last Act," Nick is like "the cartoon man from the 'Take On Me' video, bashing himself into walls to try and become human through sheer aggressive rejection of his condition." Well and vividly put!


FK's first season is my favorite season of TV, not only my favorite season of FK. The themes ... have never yet stopped speaking to me. ♥

I hope that it continues delivering for you.

[annavere]

Well and vividly put! Thank you! I do feel like Nick's anger is more likely an impediment to his search for a cure rather than a way forward.

I am very taken with the thematic elements. It is reminiscent of Highlander in that way, which I always found one of the most astonishingly thoughtful shows I've seen (in any genre). I wonder what caused two such parallel shows to debut in the same year?

This show has all the right ingredients to resonate with me. I am very happy to keep watching and posting my impressions as I go.

You should know about the long hiatus between first and second season

[brightknightie]

When you get to the end of the first season, you should know that over a year passed in real time between the first and the second seasons airing. First season was on CBS in its "Crimetime after Primetime" slot; they canceled the show after one season. There were three different cuts of first season at that time: US (shortest), Canadian (middle), and German (longest). The rumor that the German version had racier shots in it is not true; mostly, it has longer establishing shots of each scene, though there are a few extra lines of dialogue.

Then, after over a year, which the fandom calls "the hiatus," the show returned as a purely syndicated production for its second season, like HL. (The original airing of second season was not in production order, but the DVDs and streaming are all in production order.)

Then FK was purchased by the USA cable network for its third season. Each week, the new episode would premiere on USA and then be syndicated on broadcast stations.

Re: You should know about the long hiatus between first and second season

[annavere]

That is very useful information to have. Thank you! Things must have been challenging behind the scenes with all that uncertainty. I know that can often translate to shifts in tone or cast shakeups, so I will stand prepared for significant changes when I start each following season.